Curse

Savio · Feb 22, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

A good player with a good build beats the crap out of a good player with a bad build.

Jetdoc · Feb 22, 2008, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

A good player with a good build beats the crap out of a good player with a bad build.

Just like a good player with a build customized to their specific circumstance beats the crap out of a good player with a cookie-cutter build.

Savio · Feb 22, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

That's not what the OP and others are talking about; they want to justify the use of inferior skill choices. Standard warrior templates have room for customization.

Flem · Feb 22, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

That's not what the OP and others are talking about; they want to justify the use of inferior skill choices. Standard warrior templates have room for customization.

No, actually. That's exactly what the OP seems to be talking about. He was referring to the general mindset of other players and was wondering if he will be able to play effectively with skills other then those listed.

The answer is yes.

odly · Feb 22, 2008, 03:17 PM // 15:17

First of all : you don't allways have to use the ultimate best possible build to beat the game.

What I'd suggest is to get to know the established builds for your proffession. Play them and find out what makes them good.

You'll want to experiment on the side with other builds, for fun and you'll discover others that work fine too. Some will be just as good or might even be better, some will be a lot worse. By knowing the established builds you should be able to evaluate the power of your own builds and you'll at least know if you're pulling your weight or not.

Jetdoc · Feb 22, 2008, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

That's not what the OP and others are talking about; they want to justify the use of inferior skill choices. Standard warrior templates have room for customization.

I guess it's based on your definition of how much "customization" makes a cookie-cutter build not useable.

For example, using the OP's PvE "cookie cutter" build...

(PvE build cookie cutter template)
Triple Chop {E}, Cyclone Axe, Dismember, Whirlwind Attack, Flail, Watch (Save) Yourself!!, [utility], Res Skill

If you have to replace Triple Chop, Cyclone Axe, Dismember and Whirlwind Attack because you aren't going to be facing mobs where you can benefit from these AoE attacks, is that "customization" or is that "the cookie-cutter build isn't good" in that situation?

Tyla · Feb 22, 2008, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Besides, Jetdoc.
Triple Chop is bad unless you're hitting more than 2 enemies, if not its just a 10 recharge power attack.

Winterclaw · Feb 22, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

A good player with a good build beats the crap out of a good player with a bad build.

Unfortunately, unless you are famous, PUGs don't know how good you are.

I think the general rule of them should be, if you are PUGing you need to be cookie cutter if you are lower rank (PvP) or if people aren't familiar with you. However if you are in PvE, have a better rank, or if people are familiar with you, you start gaining more leeway.

iridescentfyre · Feb 22, 2008, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Unfortunately, unless you are famous, PUGs don't know how good you are.

And yet, even if you are a famously amazing player, running a bad build is still an unnecessary handicap. Sure, maybe you can make it 'work,' but why bother if you can just run a good build and be untouchable?

Terraban · Feb 22, 2008, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

And yet, even if you are a famously amazing player, running a bad build is still an unnecessary handicap. Sure, maybe you can make it 'work,' but why bother if you can just run a good build and be untouchable?

Because maybe you want to play differently for once?

You can't see me · Feb 22, 2008, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

Because maybe you want to play differently for once?

So I'm supposed to let someone in my group with the excuse that they want to "try something different"?

killress · Feb 22, 2008, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Just curious as to the intermediates and pros to what they think is effective. Some say that cookie cutter builds are 'boring' but suffice it to say, they're the best builds efficiently speaking. When people try something new, though more fun, less efficient, they get salmon-slapped up the wazoo...

Ideally, the W/X cookie cutter skills I've noticed for both modes are:
[axe example]

(PvP build cookie cutter template)
Disrupting Chop, Eviscerate {E}, Executioner's Strike, Bull's Strike, Flail, Rush, [utility from secondary, maybe], Res Skill

(PvE build cookie cutter template)
Triple Chop {E}, Cyclone Axe, Dismember, Whirlwind Attack, Flail, Watch (Save) Yourself!!, [utility], Res Skill

Now from the looks of those, 7 of the 8 skills are like 'must have or your warrior sucks' kind of setups... All these attacks mentioned [save the utility] are proven to be the best for an axe user in most if not all scenarios and I think the only thing people hump on now is the utility skill. They either force you to go with what they think is good even though 7/8th's of your skill bar is perfectly fine... (W/Mo's should take note, this is far better done using Smite above all else...)

I myself have been berated for using the above skills and my sole utility skill is something damn good, I think, like Barbs, Rigor Mortis, Well of Ruin {my fave, damn thing is devastating in a mob of high armor melee}.

So... Do you think cookie cutter is the only way to go? And that anything else is just useless banter?

I think it's perfectly fine to use some modification of a cookie cutter build. If a warrior brings at least 3-4 of the cookie cutter skills, they're in good standing vs. one who brings like, maybe 1 cookie cutter skill... You shouldn't smash a warrior for trying something new if his effectiveness drops only moderately...

No, cookie cutter isn't the only way to go. But keep in mind, they are cookie cutter for a reason. When I see a build that is cookie cutter it's usually 1 of 2 things: Amazing/creative, or, Mending Wammo-esque build. Just throwing that out there, but no, I think builds that aren't cookie cutter are better, and show more creativity than a build where you can go online to fine it.

-Killress

Terraban · Feb 22, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

So I'm supposed to let someone in my group with the excuse that they want to "try something different"?

I guess if you are that leet, and need other people to use leet builds to finish, then no, you are not supposed to let them join your group.

Dr Strangelove · Feb 22, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

You can play crap builds all day long and nobody will care, but don't get the illusion that your build is the best thing since sliced Rurik.

Bowstring Badass · Feb 22, 2008, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Or the one that's most idiot-proof. Aka ursan

So true...

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

In coordinated friends groups though, you'll be generally using your best build, and there's a reason why some builds are cookie cutter and everyone uses them--because they're good.

It's like calling dribbling the basketball with the palm side (using fingers) of your hand cookie cutter. I like to think of it as smart, because trying to dribble with the back of your hand is just retarded.

Cookie cutter for what axe?

Isn't shock axe still used to this day?

Flem · Feb 22, 2008, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

You can play crap builds all day long and nobody will care, but don't get the illusion that your build is the best thing since sliced Rurik.

So, who is the build judge you speak of?

Tyla · Feb 22, 2008, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

So, if you seen a new build that you've never seen before...you would refuse to group with them?

Wow, that's arrogant.

I think he means people running stupid builds.

Yichi · Feb 23, 2008, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

So, who is the build judge you speak of?

normally if the community or at least something like 9 other people (random number there, but it gets the point across) tells the player one thing, and they are the only one arguing against it, then it pretty much means that the community judged their build, play style, or skill usage as being utter shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

So, if you seen a new build that you've never seen before...you would refuse to group with them?

Wow, that's arrogant.

ok I'm gonan go out on a limb here and use a build (granted its for farming, but I picked a random build and was browsing that thread when i though of this reply) that if someone pinged this build in a team party for say FoW or THK, they would immediately be kicked from any group I was in. Build ingenuity can be one thing, being completely retarded or useless is another.

WARRIOR
[skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill] [skill]Shield Stance[/skill] [skill]Gladiator's Defense[/skill] [skill]Healing Signet[/skill] [skill]Dolyak Signet[/skill] [skill]Shield Bash[/skill] [skill]Deadly Riposte[/skill] [skill]mend ailment[/skill]

again never ran the buidl for it's intended purpose so not commenting on the build, just using one as a whole thats "Outside" what the build was created for.

moriz · Feb 23, 2008, 02:07 AM // 02:07

the "standard template" for both axe and sword warriors allow for some pretty ridiculous amount of customization.

sword:
sever, gash, final, bull's strike, frenzy, enraging charge

axe:
dismember, executioner's, bull's strike, frenzy, rush

both can be run quite effectively without elites. you can also substitute the straight-up attack skills on both with others (for example, eviscerate and dragon slash) as well as fill out the remaining skill slots.

for shits and giggles, i tried something like this a few days ago:

sever, gash, final, bull's strike, frenzy, enraging charge, mending, healing hands {e}

did it work? yep. simply because the basic sword template is very strong already. as long as i keep the template intact, i can quite literally run anything in the last two slots and i'll do just fine.

my point is, what's really "cookie cutter" should be the basic template of each build.

Keekles · Feb 23, 2008, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the "standard template" for both axe and sword warriors allow for some pretty ridiculous amount of customization.

...

my point is, what's really "cookie cutter" should be the basic template of each build.

100% true. As long as the "standard template" is met, the build is almost infallible.